Ref: MAT2_B09

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Part B-9: History, Memory, Questions & Humor:

Parallel Lives in Perspective

 

Murky Wells of Memory

 

"One can only draw so much from the murky wells of memory. Autobiography in the end is an interrogation of the past by the present"

 –Arthur Schlesinger

Diary – Sense of Importance

AKK:               Did you have a sense then when you started the diary, that this was going to be an important time, do you think?

JJK:                 I had no sense at all about it.  Just a little something to do.  I really started writing it though, when I went in Trinidad in September of 1941.  Then from there I went to British Guyana and onto Brazil.  And onto the Yukon.

People of the Past

 

"The assertion that the people of the past did not really know why they were doing what they did leads to the conclusion that we do not really know why we are doing what we do today. When participants explain in urgent words why they lived, fought and bled, is it not hubris for historians to dismiss their testimony?” – Arthur Schlesinger           

Events Make History?

43. JJK:           I think events make history. I don't believe in this idea of the great man theory and all that. Events come along and you have no control over them and all of a sudden, boom! Now, for example the World War II came along and they did everything to stop it. But it just accelerated all the way because of the fact that nobody stopped Hitler when he went into the Ruher back in 1936. He kept getting more power, more and more power. And the only guy who really stood up to him was [Prime Minister of England] Churchill. So it is events you have no control over.

 Interview Abbreviations:   JJK  =  Jack [John Joseph] Keefe;       WDK  =  Wanda Davis Keefe;      AKK  =  Adhiratha Kevin Keefe

 

Table of Contents

Introduction:.......................................................................................................................................................... 1

Supplementing Oral History with Documents:................................................................................................. 2

Diary formats:......................................................................................................................................................... 2

6.     JJK Diaries – 1941 - 2001?; Begins with local guys going to war................................................................ 3

Input for future book............................................................................................................................................. 4

Events make History?........................................................................................................................................... 4

Private and Public Space :.................................................................................................................................. 4

Authority to speak:................................................................................................................................................ 5

Previous Audiences for stories.............................................................................................................................. 5

Interview Process seemed to encourage participant Confidence........................................................................... 5

Genre Comparison Chart based on Portelli..................................................................................................... 5

Validity of Oral History & interest in the Archives......................................................................................... 6

ZB      More Follow up Questions OK............................................................................................................. 7

K    Why Humorous Stories?.............................................................................................................................. 7

ZC      Laugh with the World & "Poop-in-doola" rhyme Author?..................................................................... 7

 

Introduction:

While discussing the various interviews and reviewing related reference material the issue of what makes a good oral history was explored. Participants selective memory and the validating potential of related written documentation was often noted. A more analytical approach touched on the specific Oral History genre that these interviews appear to belong. The willingness of interviewees to submit to follow up questions was explored and Jack Keefe comments on his use of Humor.

Supplementing Oral History with Documents:

Of the various books read concerning this time period for the project, Schlesinger seemed to have the most philosophical and yet practical view of how history is to be read and the unreliable nature of memory with the passage of time. As a historian he felt a professional obligation to supplement and rectify memory by recourse to documents. He comments that he tried to write his biography of himself as if he were writing a biography of someone else. Even so he states that "One can only draw so much from the murky wells of memory. Autobiography in the end is an interrogation of the past by the present" [B09-N01]

 

Jack and Wanda had their own takes on memory and the historical record. Jack kept detailed records of his attempts to enter the armed forces and Wanda’s recommendation from her last Job in Canada had been preserved and validated her story.

Diary formats:

The Diary that A. Schlesinger used in his sophomore year of college summarized the days activities into 5 categories: Weather, Work, Smoking, Liquor and Love. [B09-N02]. Jack didn’t mention any categories for his diaries of the last 60 years but shared how they got started. But he is candid that he really had no sense that it was an “important time”.

 

6.                     JJK Diaries – 1941 - 2001?; Begins with local guys going to war

[excerpt below, for full see jw00se30.htm, para 06]

AKK:               We were talking a little before a about your diaries. When did you first start doing them.

JJK:                 1941.  I really started early in 1941.  As a matter-of-fact, one of my entries in February of 1941, I note the fact that the seventh Regiment, is New York, has been called up for active duty.  They were leaving from downtown New York to get the ferry, I believe it was. And I happened to be the down there, and I saw two of my friends.  Bill Rynne and Bud Arnstein, both on the line getting ready to go.  Now I don't know if whether this is true or not, but, I think Bud's wife Rita, told me later on, that when they got on the subway up near the Armory, they had to pay a nickel to get on the subway.  (Chuckle) I haven't been able to verify that.  That's what she told me. 

AKK:               This was the subway that was going to get them --

JJK:                 The subway would take them to downtown.  They would get off downtown and then they would take the ferry over to Wehawken I think it was, or something like that.

AKK:               And they had already been signed in?

JJK:                 Oh, yeah. They had their uniforms on.  None of them fitted.  I tell you, they were a  sorry group of guys.  Plus the fact, that they were called up, was a big surprise.  That was before we are in the war, you know.  But then a lot of them of course became Flyers.  Bill Rynne was a pilot, a fighter pilot.  He is an official “Ace”.  He got credited with knocking down five German planes.  He told me he really felt he got 17 German planes.  But he couldn't prove it, because you have to have a witness.  And he is off by himself somewhere.  And he had no witnesses. But he felt quite certain he had 17.  And Bud Armstein was a pilot of a.B-24.  And he was stationed in Italy.  He was knocked down at one time.  And he got back okay.

AKK:               Did you have a sense then when you started the diary, that this was going to be an important time, do you think?

JJK:                 I had no sense at all about it.  Just a little something to do.  I really started writing it though, when I went in Trinidad in September of 1941.  Then from there I went to British Guyana and onto Brazil.  And onto the Yukon.  So I had one when I met your mother. How we dated an all that sort of stuff.  How we would go in to dinner in Whitehorse.

AKK:               Do you think at that time you had -- what was the sense of the other people around you too?  Was it just your getting out of school, you were looking for jobs, and all of a sudden this war was happening.

JJK:                 Yeah.

AKK:               So, it was just, you didn't know what was going on in a way? You were –

 

 

Jack notes that he would like to put together a book of his stories as a vehical for sharing with a wider audience the reactions of his friends who joined the war effort.

 

Input for future book  

[excerpt below, for full see jk00ap16.htm, para Y, 067]

67. JJK:           .           I'm working on this book right now. And I have gone through my diaries. I've kept a diary from  1941 and I am up to just starting 1944. And I have about another 150 incidents already.

68. AKK                      is that in addition to the seventy that we already recorded?

69. JJK:                       Yes and I have all of 1944 and 1945 to go through.

70. AKK                      are you doing as we did before. You put a little number and little title.

71. JJK:                       I put the number and the date in the Diary and I put the story there and I will expand it as I get into the writing. Yeah. I think it could be very interesting to tell the reaction of all my friends going off to service.

 

 

Wanda  commented during the interview process on the number and detail of the many memories which came back as the interviews and follow up  discussion progressed. Wand and Jack seemed pleasantly surprised upon reviewing the transcriptions to find how much had been recorded.

 

In discussing the historical context Jack expanded on his view that “Events make History”. However he seems to also acknowledge that individual people’s actions caused these events.

Events make History?

[excerpt below, for full see jk00ap16.htm, para S, 043]

43. JJK:           Well, I think events make history. I don't believe in this idea of the great man theory and all that sort of stuff. Because events come along and you have no control over them and all of a sudden, boom! Now, for example the World War II came along and they did everything to stop it and so forth. But it just accelerated all the way and because of the fact that nobody stopped Hitler when he went into the Ruher back in 1936, He kept getting more power, more and more power. And the only guy who really stood up to him was [Prime Minister of England] Churchill. So it is events you have no control over.   

Private and Public Space :

Jack and Wanda's wartime service stories start with the private family and childhood community relationships but enter the public sphere very quickly. They deal with bureaucracies and hierarchies. Jack has traveled much more but Wanda is very aware of the business world.

Authority to speak:

Previous Audiences for stories

·        Jack brings to the interviews an autobiography authority derived from his experience of sharing his stories for decades with public and private audiences. He remembers his participation in events which had the potential to transform the wider society [ e.g. political campaigns.]

·        Wanda’s audiences have been mostly family and friends.  She requires encouragement to share them in a formal setting. However in a conversational setting she is able to provide rich detail of feelings of events long past especially related to the lives of her family and friends.

Interview Process seemed to encourage participant Confidence

Participating in the oral history process itself, revisiting events, consulting background correspondence, source material of the time and dairies or letters written years previously seemed to strengthen both participants confidence in what they were saying and its relative importance to other events in their lives.

Genre Comparison Chart based on Portelli

A chart excerpted from material presented in Alessandro Portelli’s The Battle of Valle Giulia, Oral History and the Art of Dialogue., Introduction and Chapter One might place Wanda and Jack’s contribution below

 

 

Where does the story fit?

 

Life

Continuum or dichotomy?

Times

Subject oriented life story

Both Jack and Wanda combined Life story with specific themes. Wanda was more theme oriented.

Theme oriented testimony

Performance oriented narrative

Both Wand and Jack had a more narrative presentation.

Related documents were presented mostly in context of a specific story. E.g. Jacks correspondence related to efforts to join the war effort. Wanda’s story of her trip back to Canada

Content-oriented document

individual experiences

Jack More Political, Wanda’s presentation was more individual experiences.

transformations of society

Biography

Wand and Jack combined biography and history, however Jack was more historical in context with exact dates or locations provided as part of the story

history

 

 

 

Narrative Pleasure

Jack and Wanda enjoy the process of telling and listening – Jack likes the humorous story and in most family or public arenas Jack would express himself via story telling. Once begun the process would often bring forth additional “often told tales”.

Hard Facts

Beauty

Wanda and Jack both discuss the beauty of travel and have a positive attitude toward life which comes across during their stories. Wanda gives more descriptive detail. Jack goes for the punch line and loves well told stories. Jack will instinctively consult a reference book to check on a name or date. Sometimes he would do so in response to a question or interrupt one of his stories  – explaining what was doing].

Truth

Life is meaningful

Story is well told

Truth of religious symbol or of Possibility

Most discussions for the interviews focused on material events

Truth of material Events

 

 

 

Personal recollections

Both have Awareness of Historical background but Jack was more likely to mention historical background due to the nature of his stories

Broader historical background

 

 

 

Personal Exchange

Wanda is more focused on personal exchange, with ability to divert or follow the conversation to unplanned topics. Jack is more prone to the public statement and finishing the story once begun.

Public Statement

 

            Validity of Oral History & interest in the Archives

People who later review the tapes or interview transcripts may question if Jack or Wanda really understood why they made certain choices or under took the actions they report. A. Schlesinger comment to those type of queries is instructive. "The assertion that the people of the past did not really know why they were doing what they did leads to the conclusion that we do not really know why we are doing what we do today. When participants explain in urgent words why they lived, fought and bled, is it not hubris for historians to dismiss their testimony? [B09-N03]

                       

To assist future researchers I have included a list of the sources consulted [Part G]  as well as transcripts of the complete interviews [Part C] .As a professional archivist, I appreciated A. Schlessinger’s comment that he finds time passes more quickly in the archives than almost anywhere else. [B09-N04].

ZB                   More Follow up Questions OK

 

The possibility of others pursing follow up questions was discussed early in the interview process with Jack.

[excerpt below, for full see jk00ap16.htm, para ZB, 077]

77. AKK:                     I might put some of this out in Electronic form and ask others if they were doing the interview, what kind of questions they would ask. In order to get behind the scenes you have to press a little. And being I'm your son it might not be as easy for me to press you on certain things.

78. JJK:                       That's right.

79. AKK:                     Because of our relationship and respect I have for you. Some professional historian might want to go further. So if they had any questions to submit to you, would that be agreeable to you?

80. JJK:                       Sure. No problem. As the saying goes. Call me, OK, any time you want. But just don't call me late for dinner. [chuckle]

K         Why Humorous Stories?

Many of Jacks favorite and often told stories are humorous and he explained why:

 

[excerpt below, for full see jk00ap16.htm, para K, 029]

29. AKK:                     One of the things I noticed in many of your Stories, you seem to find and remember the humorous side.  Do you want to discus why?

30. JJK:;                      Well that is what life is all about. You get a humorous story or a humorous phrase and you can turn a situation around completely.  After all you can't go through life without having a few laughs now and then. And this is what actually transpired. [referring to some of his brother Tom an Frank’s humorous stories during the war – see B-06]    

 

ZC                     Laugh with the World & "Poop-in-doola" rhyme Author?

[excerpt below, for full see jk00ap16.htm, para ZC, 081]

81. JJK:                      Well we were talking about Humor awhile ago and there is an old saying.  "If I laugh, it is so that I may not weep." And my father had an expression.

·        Laugh and the world Laughs with you

·        Kick and you Kick alone,

·        For cheerful grin will let  you in

·        Where a kicker is never known.

82. AKK:         Mom used to use "teardrop" in place of "kicker"   

 

Jack, ended an interview with a story about a rhyme that his father used more than 70 years ago. Jack has not come across a reference for the source and  would welcome any information. This was an example of Jack’s attention to detail and interest in sources even for a rarely heard jingle or poem.

[excerpt below, for full see jk00ap16.htm, para ZC, 083]

83. JJK:           Incidentally, my father had another expression, that I have asked people if they have ever heard. And nobody ever heard of it before. It goes [Sing song]

·        One time a "poop-in-doola"

·        Lived on a river boat;

·        A wide gigantic poodle

·        With whiskers on his throat.

·        His teeth were Long and shiny

·        His tale was made of wood;

·        He'd eat up people tiny

·        The bad but not the good.

·        And so on.

But nobody has ever heard of that before. But he always recited it

84. AKK:         And you were wondering what the source was?

85. JJK:           Yeah

 

86. AKK:         So this ends the 15th April 2000 interview

87. JJK:           In the year of our Lord [chuckle]

 

End Note part B09

End Note  Part-Sect-Note

Author

Source & Link to Bibliography in Part G

Abbreviated reference to Source

Page

B09-N01

Schlesinger, Arthur M., Jr.

A Life in the 20th Century

AL20C

Pp XIII, XIV

B09-N02

Schlesinger, Arthur M., Jr.

A Life in the 20th Century

AL20C

Pp 114

B09-N03

Schlesinger, Arthur M., Jr.

A Life in the 20th Century

AL20C

Pp 366

B09-N04

Schlesinger, Arthur M., Jr.

A Life in the 20th Century

AL20C

Pp 179